Comments on Timothy Ministry: A Critique of Limited Atonement and the Problem of...

That's a great point, Eli. Blessings to you, ...

2011-11-17T19:20:34.757-04:00

That's a great point, Eli. Blessings to you, as well!

I agree that the word "oppose" is not as...

2011-11-17T18:17:05.636-04:00

I agree that the word "oppose" is not as strong as the word "hate". That is certainly where the analogy breaks down, but as I said, it is indeed different for God because He is not doing His job, He is being Himself, and His own nature abhors sin and hates sinners because of His essential righteousness.

I do believe God can both hate and love a person at the same

Thanks for the extremely insightful and thought-pr...

2011-11-17T18:10:29.588-04:00

Thanks for the extremely insightful and thought-provoking response, Eli. While I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with your response on the whole, I do think it offers a strong possible answer to what is obviously a very difficult dilemma, and one that I've never heard communicated as well as you did it. So I sincerely thank you for that.

This, of course, brings us full

3) Both of these camps fail to consider that the r...

2011-11-17T17:48:33.646-04:00

3) Both of these camps fail to consider that the reason God does not predestine all men to be saved may have nothing to do with His desire for all men to be saved, but may have to do with a totally separate reason altogether. In fact, that is the case. If God does not elect someone for salvation, it is not because He doesn't love them (as both 5-point Calvinists and Arminians imagine), but

This is really an answer to both your and Steve...

2011-11-17T17:48:01.368-04:00

This is really an answer to both your and Steve's last posts, Anonymous, because they are in essence the same, and I've been wanting to reply to Steve but have been so busy lately. :)

Notice, first of all, that the issue, "You claim to be a 4-pointer, believing in predestination and the elect, but then apparently believe that God actually 'wants' everyone to be

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Eli. However,...

2011-11-17T13:16:15.780-04:00

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Eli. However, I'm left a little confused. You claim to be a 4-pointer, believing in predestination and the elect, but then apparently believe that God actually 'wants' everyone to be saved. If that was the case, He would predestine everyone, since no one can be saved apart from His irresistible grace and effectual calling. However, as Romans 9

Hi Anonymous, I have no problem with verses that ...

2011-11-16T23:58:17.619-04:00

Hi Anonymous,

I have no problem with verses that speak of God's hatred for sinners, because I believe that God can both love and hate a person at the same time. In His just wrath He abhors and opposes the sinner, while in His loving mercy He loves that same sinner. God loves the objects of His wrath. Such is the amazing teaching in the Bible about our God.

For those who

Eli, I very much appreciated your article as an h...

2011-11-16T13:42:43.689-04:00

Eli,

I very much appreciated your article as an honest attempt to logically address a very difficult issue. However, I think it's important to recognize that there are many supporting arguments for both sides.

As such, making a statement like: "And if God does not love all men, then God is really not a God of love but of utility" is a little dangerous in my

(continued) This letter was not only intended for...

2011-10-22T16:24:28.984-03:00

(continued)

This letter was not only intended for a specific church, but it was intended for the children of God throughout the whole world. The context is intended to comfort the "any man... [or "a certain one" -Thayer's Greek]. In the context, the certain one's among the whole world who are confessing their sins upon hearing the gospel in this epistle. For

The question of double payment is not the proper f...

2011-10-22T16:23:54.202-03:00

The question of double payment is not the proper focus in the controversy. The question of double bearing is the real question. The focus should be on Christ bearing our sins "in his own body on the tree", purging "our sins" when He sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high, the iniquity of us having been "laid on Him" when he was "made sin" and &

Just a brief statement as I am limited with time.....

2011-10-20T11:23:02.735-03:00

Just a brief statement as I am limited with time...

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 is a letter to the church and is intended to comfort needy sinners drawn by the Spirit. It is not a call to the self righteous. Gospel calls to rest in Christ are always particular for needy sinners and never universal for the self-righteous. The self righteous should be sent to the Law. If we would understand

Thanks Eli, Here's my friend's response t...

2011-08-18T07:34:23.104-03:00

Thanks Eli,

Here's my friend's response to you're response to me:

"I haven't had a chance to check out his other article, and I don't currently have time to respond to his entire (very gracious and quite intelligent) response to my poorly articulated post, but here's one thing.

I agree that Christ's death, apart from faith, does

Hello Eli, Your objection to the Double Jeopardy...

2011-08-16T13:55:03.689-03:00

Hello Eli,

Your objection to the Double Jeopardy dilemma is that, as they present it, they should also be teaching Eternal Justification (saved prior to faith), but such is plainly unscriptural. This is a solid objection.

But you ultimately concede that even your position has the Double Jeopardy dilemma, which at that point is not making the better argument but only

Hi Nick, You may have missed what I wrote in this...

2011-08-15T03:13:20.649-03:00

Hi Nick,

You may have missed what I wrote in this article about double jeopardy. Please give it a read again, because your reasoning is not taking into account all that is to be considered.

For a complete explanation of justification by faith without works, read Romans 1-5. On this doctrine the Protestant Reformers hit the nail right on the head.

Take care,
-

I am sorry I've not been able to follow this t...

2011-08-14T23:47:44.039-03:00

I am sorry I've not been able to follow this thread, but I understand the sentiment on both sides.

Limited Atonement is established on 'Systematic Theology' grounds, not Scriptural, but that 'Systematic Theology' is pretty logical: If Jesus took the punishment man deserved, then that man cannot be damned (via double jeopardy). If Jesus died for all men, then nobody

Hey Steve, great to hear from you. If you check a...

2011-08-14T23:27:51.216-03:00

Hey Steve, great to hear from you.

If you check any book on Limited Atonement or any 5-point Calvinist systematic theology, you will see that the real arguments which are made in favor of Limited Atonement are philosophical in nature rather than Scriptural. Of course Scripture will be used, but the main point is exactly what your friend is saying: it is argued that Christ's death &

Hi Eli, This is Steven Opp from the Nuart Theater ...

2011-08-14T00:35:39.175-03:00

Hi Eli,
This is Steven Opp from the Nuart Theater in Moscow. I passed your article on to a friend of mine and here are his responses--I'm curious what you might say regarding them...

"First, I love his attitude toward us Limited folks: it is gracious, and I agree with him all the way through his definitions, which is very rare. So, kudos so far.

But, thus far

Hi daveyboy, thanks for the comments. What might ...

2011-03-09T04:04:07.872-04:00

Hi daveyboy, thanks for the comments.

What might surprise you is that I myself am a Calvinist and hold to depravity, unconditional election, irresistable grace and perseverance of the saints. It is limited atonement that I reject, and one does not have to be a 5-point Calvinist in order to believe in the doctrines stated above. Did you know that John Calvin himself did not believe in

Your ideas on limited/unlimited atonement are not ...

2011-03-08T21:43:42.531-04:00

Your ideas on limited/unlimited atonement are not new. They have been debated for centuries by men of God on both sides of the theological divide...John Wesley and George Whitefield come to mind.
What seems to be taken for granted in your argument is the moral ablity of man to come to Christ on his/her own, apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. I reject this implicit premise.

Praise our Lord Jesus Christ! Eli, Thank you for t...

2011-03-01T04:42:13.906-04:00

Praise our Lord Jesus Christ!
Eli, Thank you for this! I can clearly see that the Holy Spirit inspired this article! I have been struggling terribly with with the false doctrine of Limited Atonement! This article has blessed me so much! I will share it with others! I so appreciate your heart and your contending for the faith!
May the Lord make his face to shine upon you my friend!

Hi Chris, But the promise of salvation is not sen...

2011-02-20T00:12:44.611-04:00

Hi Chris,

But the promise of salvation is not sent only to the elect but to every creature. The gospel is not trying to "find the elect" so to speak, but it is good news to the world. If Christ did not die for every creature then such a promise is empty and meaningless.

And as for God calling out to those whom He knows will ultimately reject it, we see God do this

I forgot to subscribe to any follow up comments. I...

2011-02-19T22:51:45.275-04:00

I forgot to subscribe to any follow up comments. I'm doing that with this post.

No, we do not believe in a God who pulls our le...

2011-02-19T22:51:01.453-04:00
No, we do not believe in a God who pulls our leg and makes promises that are meaningless and empty.

Eli, if Jesus has died for all but not all will believe because not all will be called by God's irresistible call, then it still seems like the promise is meaningless and empty for those who are not elect. Even if the potential to be saved is there, there is no hope for

Hey Eli, Makes sense to me! I think I have alway...

2011-02-13T22:27:45.883-04:00
Hey Eli,

Makes sense to me! I think I have always believed everything you've outlined and I am obviously ignorant of some of these theological debates. Thanks once again for for introducing a layman (me) to the subject and bringing balanced truth. I appreciate your hard work bro : ) Miss you, good to see you all at Christmas!! Micah

Hey there Eli, I liked your post very much. Its g...

2011-02-11T16:54:16.747-04:00
Hey there Eli,

I liked your post very much. Its good to see an emergent thoughtful criticism of limited expiation/imputation of sin. A lot of times folk on both sides through out claims without understanding the mechanics of their own view of imputation and expiation.

What strikes me in a lot of limited expiation polemics is that there is so much stress on what Christ "