Thursday, April 27, 2006

A Message to All Users of this Site

This is how this blog come about:

A friend of mine told me about this blogging thing; I had not intention or pre-thought of doing this. So he set me up and I played around with it a bit. I thought it would be useful to have to steer people towards when I go preach at churches and stuff, so they can see what my ministry is about (teaching, preaching and evangelism) and also my doctrinal beliefs.

It was a pretty quiet website and I didn't expect anything from it. Until I posted an article about the New England Primer which seemed to attract crazy attention, and from there it seemed like every post I put up was attacked and belittled and opposed. The snowball started to roll until now it seems like the site has a large audience and many frequenters. The saddest thing about this blog is the fact that Christians come on here and create a huge issue with simple fundamental doctrines (ie. repentance, faith, Holy Spirit, witnessing). This blog is not the cause of harm, but it is all these foolish and unreasonable people who argue for arguing sake or are genuinely ignorant of sound doctrine and speak before they know what is true. I do not think the site is the problem, but these people.

Then you have people who come on here that are anonymous though they are well known by many of us. They like to say their ugly piece without standing up to the consequences of saying it. They are cheap and cowardly. They want a voice without responsibility. I say, get out.

Christians are suppose to be like Christ. We had better start acting like it, loving one another and seeking to build one another up instead of tearing down. I sense there are many people on this blog who are here simply to tear down myself and others. It's one thing to discuss doctrine, it's another to be proud, unrelenting, deaf to correction and spiteful. To these people I speak for your shame.

I believe we can make this site a better place for everyone, sinner or saint:

1. Before you comment, ask yourself deep inside why you are commenting. Is it to help or to hurt?

2. Study the Scriptures thoroughly and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It's not enough to just know what the Bible says, but get to know what the Bible means. Don't be afraid to ask questions, but don't post so assuredly before you have rightly divided the word of truth with all diligence. This would save us much trouble.

3. Have a humble heart to take correction, but don't compromise if you truly are unsure. However, there is a difference between not compromising and being proudly stubborn. Check your motives and your spirit as you read, ponder and reply.

4. Only comment when necessary. Don't add fuel to a fire or needlessly post just to stir up contention. Post if you feel you need to encourage or correct. Otherwise, it is best and wisest to remain silent.

5. If you have an issue that is more personal, don't take it up on the blog. Send an email to me or to whoever it is you have issue with. Let's use wisdom in our actions as well as privacy where privacy is due.

6. If you're a non-Christian coming onto the site, be respectful towards us and our beliefs. Do not cast ridicule or slurs. These words are pointless and in the end do you and us no good. If you want to use this site, use it to learn and to benefit from, not make it a ruinous place on the internet.

7. And as Christians, exemplify Christ in your behaviour here. Set the mind of Jesus in you. Be humble, be encouraging, be sensitive to others. Let this site be used for good and not for evil, for edification. Don't be ignorant, but get to know God who saved you and be like Him. "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

May God bless and guide the further use of this site.

23 comments:

jedd said...

Hey Eli,

Thank you for answering my question.

I agree with you that the site itself is not the root cause of all the harm. What I meant to ask is this: If the end result of the blog is such harm (though not the blog itself), why continue to have it?

It seems to me that you could continue in your street preaching ministry without this blog. And it seesm to me that you could invest more of your time and energy into street preaching if you didn't continue to maintain your blog.

I mention these things simply because it occurs to me that the people who post here (myself included) have not been the greatest witnesses. Judging from the latest couple of threads, this trend doesn't appear to be stopping any time soon. Why not (at least temporarily) shut it down? Its not like you need the blog to do your street preaching. Maybe after a 'cooling down' period you wouldn't get all the negativity that has infiltrated the blog.

This is just a suggestion. Know that I'm not trying to discourage you from doing what you feel called to do.

jedd

Paul West said...

Eli, I don't think you should close down your blog because of opposition. Continue to post your audios and write messages that promote holiness. You have no idea how many other people are reading and listening and are being blessed by your ministry.

With encouragement, Bro. Paul

Chris said...

I agree with Paul Eli, keep posting and dont be discouraged by people who slam you, it's gonna happen no matter how many times you say "please don't be rude here. Maybe if you want you should set up comments to be approved (this is in the blogger settings) what this will do is, a user can post a comment which will be emailed to you, you can read it, and if it is good, you can say yes, and it will post, or you can say no, and the message will not go up for others to see. I think that would solve a lot of the problem that you seem to be having

Luke said...

My vote goes to keeping the Blog alive. Being here in Ontario, it is nice to be able to keep an eye on what you are doing in Fredericton. I consider this Blog to be equally important to your street preaching. Keep up the good work.

jedd said...

Chris,

You're absolutely right: No matter how many times Eli or others say, "Please be nice," it isn't going to happen to the degree that it should (not long-term, anyway).


To no one in particular,

In light of Chris' observation mentioned above, and in light of my own reasons in my first post (namely, the pervading negativity), I think a wise course of action would be to at least temporarily stop the blog. I have no doubt that people have been edified by its content (I myself found the thread on homosexuality to be quite fruitful and insightful). However, the fruitful content of that thread is the exception rather than the norm on thgis blog. I also have no doubt that some unbelievers who read this blog have been turned off by it. Is is temporary pause really such a bad idea?

Eli,

I understand that it must be frustrating to encounter what seems to be endless questioning of your posts from fellow believers.
However, if what you post really is sound doctrine, do you think you would recieve such overwhelming criticism from fellow believers? Maybe from a few. But not from several. I admire that you have your convictions about scriptute. I think all believers should have their opinions. But there is dogma, and there is doctrine. All (true) believers accept biblical dogma without debate (e.g., that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died and rose again, that he ascended into heaven, etc.). But most of what you post about is related to doctrine (i.e., baptism of the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, sinlessness,etc.). People will debate these things for all time. To present your views on such matters as the 'right' way and to criticize other believers for not agreeing with them is, to me, arrogant and immature (I say this in love). In all the sermons of his that I have heard, John Piper (who, by the way, holds a PhD in theology), whenever he preaches about a potentially controversial doctrinal subject, always prefaces his sermons by saying something like, "I'm going to argue why I believe that..." I think a big reason why your posts are met with criticism from believers is that we don't like to be told that we are wrong about topics that have remained inconclusive for centuries. I'm guessing that this is why you so ruthlessly defend your argumetns, never budging an inch. Its one think to think you are right (everybody thinks that he/she is right!). Its another to assert that you are right. At the end of the day, we're all at our own point in our respective spiritual journeys. We're all trying to figure things out.

You mention that you use this blog as a place to which you can steer those to whom you minister. I see what you mean and all. But wouldn't it be better to steer these people to a local church? Your website gives a rather loud impression that you are trying to do your own thing. I think it would be better to direct people to an established body of believers than to yourself. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? If your calling is to street-preaching, the blog isn't necessary. Given all the negativity that has arisen from it, its doubly unnecessary.

Just some food for thought.

jedd

Andrew said...

Eli, to be honest I can say that I've enjoyed reading your blog the past little while, even if others haven't. If my memory serves me correctly, I've never actually commented, and that was intentional. I didn't want to stir anything up.

Eli, my brother, we are probably the most opposite people on the face of this planet, holding - in some cases - perfectly contrary worldviews. And yet I don't have any issue saying that I love you and know that deep down we're on the same page.

God bless you Eli, and please keep writing in this blog. I say that in spite of disagreeing with a lot of the things you write! I value my freedom and liberty so much that I would never do anything to hinder yours. Some say that that I'm liberal enough even to love conservatives :) hahaha....

drop me an email or something.. we'll get a coffee bro.

peace,
Andrew

Eli said...

Jedd, no no no, I would never send a non-believer to this disgusting Christian warzone! I was talking about when I go and preach in churches, which is a big part of my ministry.

As for doctrine... some things that have been considered arguable really aren't... some things are arguable, like Calvinism and Arminianism for example: but baptism of the Holy Spirit? Though it is argued, I believe it is a doctrine that should NOT be argued and doesn't have to be if people would just read Scripture correctly. (Yes yes, I know I'm going to get major flak for this, oh well, someone might as well.)
I sincerely love you my brothers, and maybe you should reconsider these doctrines we fight over. I know I have. (Yes yes, this will get trouble too).

Andrew! Haha, I agree completely. That we are different is for sure, but I love you the same, brother, and I pray for you much before the Lord. May He be with you and guide you always.

Logic said...

Jedd, that was an excellent post. Very well put.

Eli, I am very disappointed that you refer to this as a "disgusting Christian warzone". For the most part the debates are healthy and informative. I suspect you likely don't think it is prodcutive because so many people refute your arguments... which I consdier to be quite fortunate because at least people will not be swept away by false doctrine.

Jedd's best point was that you fail to direct people into a local church, something many of us have mentioned for months. Jedd observes, "Your website gives a rather loud impression that you are trying to do your own thing", and I think this is an accurate observation. There is no sense that you are building a church community, rather it seems that you are trying to establish yourself and your own doctrines. If this is not the case, perhaps you should emphasize the importance of local church commitment, accountability and involvement... since those are such clear doctrines in Scripture.

I think the site is a good place for debates. Furthermore, the debates are usually over interpretation and application of things we all recognize as true. For example, we agree that we are all instructed to 'preach the gospel', but disagree on the methods by which this preaching should be implemented. Unfortunately, it often seems as though you are missing the arguments.

A last thing, you continue to insist that others would see things your way if they read scripture correctly. This is extremely arrogant and often people who start cults use similar reasoning. While you might be correct in your interpretation, it is arrogant to claim you are above reproach. It seems you think you are the only one who is enlightened enough to properly interpret. This is especially so when the educated try to correct you but you insist that you know better. I am deeply concerned by your inability to recognize this.

Anyway, thats enough antagonism for now

-Logic

Paul West said...

I think that if we tallied up all the posts and looked at each as either pro or con, we would find the great majority leaning in favor of Eli's theology. The reason this blog seems to be so negative is that it's always the SAME people that are blasting him, nit-picking everything he posts, and these SAME people (I think there's only about four of them) post with such regularity and such sarcasm that indeed it seems as though they dominate and are the prevailing voice.

But there are much more people in support of Eli that post ONCE and then go away until a new post comes.

It's ironic that the one calling for this blog to be shut down is the one who is instigating all the negativity with tag-team partners. You all do this sytematically, one after the other, and praise each other's comments as 'excellent' and 'well said'. You ought to be ashamed for all the discouragement you sow. You discourage the method of his street preaching (which is 100% biblical, as far as I can see) - and now you're trying to shut down the blog as well. I want to call you the name you deserve, but I will observe Eli's rules.

Is it any of your business how Eli focuses his time, whether it be between his street ministry or maintaining this blog? Who gives? Focus on your OWN ministry, mind your own affairs.

I know I'm gonna be blasted for this post, but the truth is the truth. This blog is godly and encouraging for many. If you think it's so full of negativity, then STOP causing it and find a blog you can agree with (or start your own). If you have nothing edifying to say, then you guys need to just go away and take your foolish criticisms somewhere else. The negativity will then clear up real fast, I assure you.

My two cents.

Paul

jedd said...

PW,

"I know I'm gonna be blasted for this post, but the truth is the truth."

I'm not going to blast you, Paul. But I am going to make some comments.

"It's ironic that the one calling for this blog to be shut down is the one who is instigating all the negativity with tag-team partners."

I'm not calling for the blog to be "shut down." I'm asking that Eli think about suspending operations for a period of time, whatever he feels is reasonable. I believe I called it a "cooling down period" in a previous post. I think this is wise.

"You all do this sytematically, one after the other, and praise each other's comments as 'excellent' and 'well said'."

I see what you mean, but I assure you that I, at least, do not actually post systematically in collusion with anyone else. You'll have to trust me on this. I post just like you do. I question posts which I do not agree with, and I praise those which I like.

"You ought to be ashamed for all the discouragement you sow. You discourage the method of his street preaching (which is 100% biblical, as far as I can see)"

To quote my own post on this very thread (2:19 PM): "Know that I'm not trying to discourage you from doing what you feel called to do." Furthermore, in the thread entitled "Soapbox Smashed, Nearly Beaten," I argued why I believe that so-called lifestyle evangelism seems to be the preferred method of Paul. I never suggested that street preaching is 'wrong.' I simply questioned the tactic of singling out and questioning the faith of one particular person in a crowd.

"If you think it's so full of negativity, then STOP causing it and find a blog you can agree with (or start your own). If you have nothing edifying to say, then you guys need to just go away and take your foolish criticisms somewhere else. The negativity will then clear up real fast, I assure you."

Paul, I encourage you to go back to the thread entitled "Will You Pray for Us?". In it there began a discussion on homosexuality. It started out quite civilized, went downhill (as most threads on this board do) toward the middle, but then got civilized again. By the end of the thread, EVEYONE was contributing to a fruitful discussion in a civilized, Christlike manner. For once, all posts were truly edifying. I encourage you to revisit that thread and consider what event triggered the return to civility. Over the next few threads, debates remained more or less civilized in spite of disagreement on doctrine. Different ideas were thrown around, and the discussion was generally edifying. But in "Romans 7 Under the Microscope," things started to get ugly again. I encourage you to revisit that thread as well and consider why this happened.

"Is it any of your business how Eli focuses his time, whether it be between his street ministry or maintaining this blog? Who gives?"

Since Eli and I have enjoyed much fellowship in the months before my move to Ontario, since I do consider him a friend, and since he is my brother in the Lord, and in view of what the Bible has to say about accountability and admonishing fellow believers, I believe it would be wrong for me not to show concern for Eli and his ministry. I admit that it may not always seem so, but my posts are well-intended.

"Focus on your OWN ministry, mind your own affairs."

I don't have my OWN ministry. I am an active member in a local church. I minister under its authority and under its direction. I don't do my own thing.
Mind my own affairs?? At least I actually know Eli.

"This blog is godly and encouraging for many."

Godly...in and of the blog itself, yes. But godliness is not exhibited nearly enough in my opinion (hence why I've suggested a time-out). Encouraging for many...absolutely (myself included!). But I would wager that for every person who has been encouraged by it, one has been discouraged by it (another reason why I've suggested a time-out).

"I want to call you the name you deserve, but I will observe Eli's rules."

I don't think I deserve to be called any derogatory name.


Eli,

Why don't you ask Mike about my suggestion to give your blog a rest (but NOT necessarily a grave!) He is much more familiar with your ministry endeavours than I am, and (from what he tells me) he reads your blog once in a while, so he will be familiar with the negativity that we both acknowledge. As we both know, he is a wise and faithful brother.

jedd

Paul West said...

Jedd,

If you mean for your posts to be well-intended, then encourage Eli to keep posting godly articles. Encourage him to keep preaching repentance and posting the audio so others can hear it and be inspired. If you feel like there's too much negativity on this blog then stop nit-picking and ganging up on him. I don't agree with your theology either, Jedd - I think you're in error on matters of holiness and sanctification and oblivious to correction. And now I see self-centeredness as well.

It is selfish of you to even suggest of closing down this blog (even if 'temporary'); what about those who look forward to Eli's new posts? His audios? What about me and Ricky Earle and Gramps and TC and Chris and Micah and Karen? We don't seem to have a problem with Eli. Why should we be deprived of good, solid theology just because you and two or three other guys don't agree?

You're trying to throw the negativity on "Soapbox Smashed" and "Will You Pray for Us" on me, eh? On Soapbox, I posted an encouraging comment to Eli (not to anyone else) and Logic stepped in and bashed me, basically accusing me of having bogus credentials. Then all the rest of you guys joined in and followed suit like you usually do. It's very sad. After I left "Will You Pray" the discussion did become civil again, but that's because you guys agree with each other anyhow. Eli was gone, so there was peace.



You say you minister in a church; so do I. I'm under a Pastor, but it's still my ministry. I'm accountable to God for it, as you're accountable to God for yours. Focus on yours and leave Eli in God's hands. Pray for him, bless him, encourage him, exhort him in the the Holy Spirit. But don't just come on here and nit-pick EVERY SINGLE POST he writes and then suggest he close it down because of all the negativity YOU caused! That's ludicrous.

The Apostle Paul and 'life-style' evangelism? He basically spent his 'life' in prison for PREACHING the gospel of repentance. When he wasn't in prison he was hunted down and chased like a dog, was stoned, whipped, shipwrecked, beaten with rods, carried above crowds that wanted to tear him to shreds. Sure, he lived it - but even more so, he preached it. You use Paul as an example of a peaceful, tolerant ministry? Btw, Paul singled out people in the open-air too (and rebuked them) - and caused no small stir because of it.

I know you'll shoot back with something, try to exonerate yourself from everything I wrote. I just want you to know that I see your motive for wanting Eli to close his blog, and you're in the flesh. Did you pray about this before you went to Eli? Did you hear from God?

Eli said...

I'm not going to get into this very far, I'm don't feel like defending myself anymore against "me and my false doctrines.' I just want to touch on a few things Logic said which are unfair and uninformed.

Quote: "Jedd's best point was that you fail to direct people into a local church, something many of us have mentioned for months."

Brother, you show me where I have failed to do this. Show me when I have not told someone to go to church. Let me share this: last Sunday I went to church and found out that a non-believer had been on my blog and was stirred to go to church that Sunday! So I didn't even do anything and someone went to church last Sunday because of the blog. Great! I have never said I was against church... you have said I was.

I find in these arguments I'M not against your ways but YOU are against MY ways. Example: I'm not against friendship evangelism... YOU are against open air preaching. My goodness, the apostle Paul only cares about one thing: That Christ was preached! Check your motives.

Quote: "There is no sense that you are building a church community..."

Brother, I'm preaching the gospel, not building a church building. Goodness, if you are going to act like this go pick on the Lady's Quilting Ministry.

Quote: "While you might be correct in your interpretation, it is arrogant to claim you are above reproach."

Show me where I have ever said I am above reproach. Is it wrong to be firm in your doctrine... doctrines so Biblical and proven that arguments against them are vanity?

The problem with Christians today is: We care more about education then we do about empowerment. We seek diplomas and not anointing. We are more interested to find people of degrees in school then degrees of fire. It's not by might nor by power but by My Spirit, saith the Lord. The anointing breaks the yoke, not the PHD, hallelujah!

Matt Sears said...

"Show me where I have ever said I am above reproach. Is it wrong to be firm in your doctrine... doctrines so Biblical and proven that arguments against them are vanity?"

Ok, I will show you. The above cited statement provides an excellent example. You claim to be above reproach when YOU set the guidelines as to what is a Biblical doctrine so proven as to make arguements against it vanity. For instance, the debate concerning Romans 7. You make some excellent are thoughtful points, points which we all should read and ponder prayerfully I might add, yet the issue is still a complex one that has been debated for hundreds of years by some of the keenest theological minds, and will be debated for time to come. To suggest that the opinions of the likes of John Calvin are "vanity" in light of your own brilliant exegesis comes across to many as equivalent to a claim of infallability.

Thus, whether or not you intend such an impression to come through, it comes through nonetheless.

Adam Wright said...

Eli,

I'm not going to say anything on here that I won't say to you when we meet up. I think that you should consider Jedd's words, not out of negativity, but out of wisdom. There are a lot of people who read this blog who you don't know about. These people view it as very negative or very positive.

As much as Paul West may be speaking to you in love, he doesn't know the demographic of your hearers. I would also venture to say that no one else who doesn't live here knows either. They can't see or talk to the people who are involved like you and I can. It's not a black and white issue, Eli. If you shut it down for a while it's not a victory for us who are "negative". None of us have ever said to stop preaching on the streets. We're concerned with doctrine and truth - something you should be happy for because we're brothers who are concerned with the truth. We may be strong critics, but then again that can be very positive if you look at it that way. I'm sure we'll get into it more when we talk. Let me know when you are available.

Peace

jedd said...

PW,

I feel no need to exonerate myself. I simply ask you one question based on your comment:

"I just want you to know that I see your motive for wanting Eli to close his blog, and you're in the flesh."

What, then, is the true motive behind my suggestion to Eli?


Adam,

"If you shut it down for a while it's not a victory for us who are 'negative.'"

This is a very, very good point. I'm so glad you brought this up!


Eli,

Adam's point above is true. This isn't 'us' vs. you. We're not on a common mission to stop your ministry. I apologize if my suggestion came across this way. My suggestion is about promoting peace within the body of Christ. It is my hope and prayer that, after a temporary pause, peace would be manifest in this blog even in spite of whatever theological differences may arise. Wouldn't this be wonderful?!

Again, I stress that my suggestion applies only to the website, not to other aspects of your ministry (e.g., street preaching). I am very thankful that your blog is producing fruit! I am glad to hear that, through your blog, the HS prompted an unbeliever to go to church. In light of this, I want to clarify my suggestion. I'm not suggesting that you temporarily take your blog off the internet altogether. I'm suggesting that you leave it up and viewable with all of its current content, but that you cease to add new articles to it for a period of time (however long you feel is reasonable), and that you disable the commenting privileges for the same period of time. By all means, do leave it up and viewable during such time.

Again, I also ask that you consider discussing this with Mike (if you haven't done so already).

jedd

Eli said...

Brother Jedd,

I don't think this is about you vs me, and have never thought that. I also talk to Mike very often. I am considering taking the commenting option off for a while... but I don't think I will close the blog down due to the many unspoken people who visit the blog. In actuality, the amount of people who are edified from this far outweighs those who are not.

Don't worry brother, I have never thought that any of you guys (Logic, Matt, you, Adam) have ever been against me. I know you are just trying to be helpful and correct doctrine etc. I just hope you guys see that I am thus far not convinced of your points, am convinced of what I see clearly in the Bible, and am NOT above reproach or correction. This is just what is happening right now. I humbly ask that you would stop accusing me of saying I am above reproach. I have just not been convinced of what you are saying.

God bless you all.
Under the blood of Jesus,
-Eli

Logic said...

Eli,

Either you can't read and understand what I say, or you put words in my mouth. I will choose to believe that you continue to put words in my mouth.

you say that I am against your ways. This is, however, far from the truth. Knowing the demographic that you preach to, I have only claimed that street preaching in Fredericton is not the best method of evangleism. While I did concede that it is not immoral, I maintain that it is not the MOST effective way to reach people.

My charge against you is that your ministry is unbiblical because it is not endorsed by a specific local church. What this means is that you are not representing a specific local church in Fredericton. I believe this is unbiblical. I am not against what you do as much as I am against your lack of submission to a local church. Perhaps I am wrong on this, and if you are, in fact, representing a local church and are accountable to a local church, please tell me what church.

And if you are accountable to such a church, I would like to know if that church endorses your website and all of the doctrines you preach.

Aside from all this, I am not trying to tell you to get people to attend church, I'm arguing that you ought to be discipling people as you are instructed to do in the great commission.

When I said you fail to direct people into a local church, what I meant was that you are not representing a specific local church and are not directing people to become actively involved through discipleship.

Furthermore, I never said "Eli is against church", which is what you claim I said.

I am most certainly not against open air preaching, as you continue to accuse me of being. This is absurd. Please stop misquoting me. I concede that at least the gospel is preached, but I argue that your method is not the best at this time and in this location. In my opinion, your efforts could be better spent.

Telling me to check my motives is an interesting ruse. I'm not the one posing for the media. Maybe you should check your motives. I intentionally leave my name out so that I am not glamorized in any way for posting here. Yet I should check my motives? Sure, you admitted that your conscience did not sit right with having yourself glamorized in the media... well, that is certainly good. Nevertheless, you still got up there and let the picture be taken. Again, lets question my motives! I'm always drawing attention to myself rather than the gospel!

This part nearly made me laugh out loud... and makes me wonder if my original assumption that you are illiterate holds:

you quote me as saying

Quote: "There is no sense that you are building a church community..."

and then reply by saying

"I'm preaching the gospel, not building a church building."

Hmmm.... does anyone else see a problem here? Did I ever suggest Eli should build a church building??? Last time i checked, and it has been a while so I may be wrong, church community is not the same as church building. I believe that 'community' is not synonymous with 'building'... maybe someone with a PhD could help us out here.

Funny you should mention the ladies quiliting... sounds like an activity that builds relationship and reaches the community. I won't be picking on that, it sounds noble.

You sound as though you are above reproach when you claim to be enlightened to the truth by the Holy Spirit and claim the rest of us are misinterpreting scripture. Matt addressed this well in his comment, so I won't repat him.

Eli, if you are going to have a rational discussion with people and earn respect, you're going to have to stop misquoting people and reading into what they are saying. Some of your responses to me are absolutely foolish. If you think I am implying that you need to be constructing church buildings when I say 'build church community' or 'disciple new Christians', you are sadly mistaken.

Sure, I might be misinformed on a few things - such as your church involvement. But this is only because you failed to mention what church you're endorsed by when I asked you several weeks ago.

-Logic

Eli said...

"Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done." (2 Timothy 4:14)

You have no idea how your words tear down and not build up. You have no idea how difficult it is for me to be attacked like this everyday. Do you not have a ear to hear what the Bible says, to build one another up in the Lord? You have always only stirred contention, you have critized and called it correction. You have said open air preaching is not effective yet have never suggested a better alternative. I'm so weary of your remarks, Logic, I'm going to ask that you not comment on this blog again. You are no Christian who does nothing but tear down. You live in your own little world, come on the internet as an anonymous poster, and just tear into everything and anything that I have done. I have already made it clear that I do not agree with you and will not submit to your idea of doctrine and Christian service. I would ask that you do as the Bible says and move on. You have no more place here, and you do nothing but damage. Why not think about what you have been doing all this time rather than just mindlessly belittle. Think about others for a change. Put yourself in my place.

I am forever forever baffled how a Christian brother could treat another brother in such a way. All I have been doing is preaching the gospel to the lost.

Confused and upset,
-Eli, servant of the Lord

Adam Wright said...

Eli,

I've carefulyl read the posts here. I REALLY think you are not reading Logic's posts correctly. I'm not siding with anyone here but I am going to make a comment.

I have noticed that you will not offer a suggestion as to how your ministry and church affiliation are related. I think it would be wonderful for the people you minister to on the streets to become involved in church regularly. That would be awesome.

I just can't understand why you won't answer this question. This question has been ringing for months now. Eli, does your church endorse your ministry and agree with your doctrine? Are the people you are ministering to being told to goto your church? I know it's not all about "a church". It's about people being saved. But you HAVE to agree that saved people should be involved in a church and it's ministries.

Eli, you also accuse Logic of stiring up debate and contention. While I will admit that he has stirred up a level of debate, I can not admit that it is all negative. There is a way to debate and not become angry. There is a way to debate and be fruitful. Make no mistake. There must be a level of debate in any church because people differ on opinions and should strive for a common mindset.

I hate to do it, but how are you comments different from that Anonymous posters not long ago? I read over them again this morning (wishing I knew who he/she was) and realized that this person made some serious statements that were not addressed.

I am noticing a common trend here. Whenever someone makes assumptions or asks hard questions that are not easily answered by quoting a few verses, people get angry. Now, a very cynical person would interpret this as pride in not being able to answer at all.

Eli, you ask Logic to do as the bible says and move on. From his last post, besides the comments that could be interpreted as negative, he is. I admit that he can be sarcastic (Logic, I mean no offence but I believe you would agree with me). But overall, he is asking you some serious questions that should be answered.

Eli, the Lord should repay ALL of us for the wrongs we have done. Let's have some grace here, no?

Eli, it's not as black and white as you think it is. You say that all you have been doing it preaching the gospel to the lost. That's true, I believe it. I don't want you to stop, either. But there are helpful ways to make your ministry more effective. And please don't say that all you need is the Spirit. We ALL agree on this. However, sometimes there are ways that are more fruitful than others. I've been in your shoes, preached on the streets, and learned one thing: I wish that my church had been behind me. I was doing a solo mission. It would have been better to have people know where I was comming from. Just a piece of my history.

Anyways, I think Logic should keep posting. If you don't want Logic to post, don't let any of us post. That includes EVERYONE. Keep your blog if you have to but just disable the comments if you can't handle the debate that incurs.

my interpretation.

Eli said...

Here's where I'm confused... I have never once said I do not direct people to a church. As a matter of fact, every single person that is showing interest I will point them to the church I go to. I have no idea why you and Logic continue to "suggest" that I send them to church. I do! Or you "correct" me that I don't... but I do! Where is this accusation coming from? The church I go to is Sunset Church, I've said this before, you must not have read it. As to my ministry and the church, I've already talked to the pastor, but this is really just something I do alone. Is that so wrong? No, I don't have a support squad at church giving me a budget and putting my name in the bulletin... what would that change anything anyway? I have solid men and women of faith praying and supporting me all over the province and outside. I believe in this point of argument against me you have all been wrong completely.

Brother, I absolutely agree with you that there is good debate and bad debate. I also agree that Logic has spurred good debate. I also know that he (and others) have spurred bad debate. Why? I don't know, maybe because you don't like my preaching, my methods, my doctrine, so instead of just letting it be after we have already discussed them, it just continuous non-stop opposition, no encouragement, no "good job", no "keep reaching the lost". Logic has hit the spot that I dislike the most in Christians: The intellectual, heady, no heart, PHD lovers.

I love discussion, I love Bible debating, I had antagonistic arguing and contention that goes nowhere. I love Jesus and want to serve Him, that's the truth... can't we agree on that and work together to get something done? There is absolutely no unity in Christ anymore... I am so sad and grieved at how few Christians I can even get along with regardless of doctrine. Everyone is so proud and doesn't like to give an inch. Where's the mind of Christ?

All my and Paul's posts to Anonymous where in reply to his unChrist-like post which tore Paul up. I can't see how you don't see this. You must be blind to not discern the terrible spirit in all his posts.

Let's have grace? Why don't you tell that to Logic and Anonymous?

Okay, you have all said you have helpful ways to make my ministry more effective. Let's here them. I haven't heard ONE so far except local church local church local church, which I know all about, and frankly... there's so many local churches in Fredericton, no, around North America, if that were the answer, why is the church so dead and lost so unreached?

What we need is not more local churches, we need Holy Ghost revival, and that is the only thing we need, and until you guys agree with me on this, that nothing else will help, not PHDs, seminaries or churches, we will forever be in debate, forever disagree and forever get nowhere.

Don't tell me you agree... PLUS. There is no plus. It's God or nothing, not God and something.

Adam Wright said...

Eli,
I, for one, am not saying that you have never directed people to a church. I'm glad that you have pointed people towards a church. My point for asking this was to make sure that the people you speak to are going SOMEWHERE. If you say that they're going someplace (or you are pointing them to someplace), I will have to trust you.

Eli, I think you need to have as much grace as Logic or Anonymous. That also includes, Jedd, Paul West, myself, and anyone else who posts here. I wouldn't be so niave as to suggest that you are completely without blame. I'm sure all of our posts have come across as negative at one point or another.

It seems that what you are expecting is hands on advice concerning your ministry. I have not done a huge amount of street preaching (that is, to a large crowd). I would need to see and hear you speak to offer anything. I speak for myself only. Perhaps there are others who could help more. I'd love to speak with you though. Maybe we can ressurect the bible study that you had with the guys. A thought.

In terms of Anonymous, I'm not going to defend you or him because I've decided it really has nothing to do with me (at least as far as I can tell). I'm trying to read his or her posts from a 3rd person perspective (if that is possible). It seems that since you expected persecution you read his first post that way. Perhaps this is not the arena to discuss this, but his first comments concerning "psychological tests" were probably in reference to the anxiety that a person would experience by putting so much pressure on themselves. I think that's how we should read that. I'm not going to go statement for statement with you here. I'll leave that for you to hash out. Like I said, it has nothing to do with me right now. All I'm saying is that he makes interesting points that should be considered regardless if you like them or not.

I don't think anyone will disagree with you about a Holy Spirit revival. However, I don't think you should be so harsh on education. Education plays a role in everything. Sadly, PhD people have gotten slack because they have at times divorced themselves from the spiritual and focus primarily on the logical. I will give you that. But you must concede that God uses our education and efforts to teach and instruct. Not to mention that it helps us argue effectively and understand and know those who oppose us. Be careful not to cause segregation between "Educated people" and spiritualism. I'm not going to debate with you as to the importance of education.

I'll speak for myself only. I agree that God is in control and that he works. But you are never going to get full agreement about the extent to which we, as humans, are involved. Just something to keep in mind before you take your stand with your opinions about revivalism.

Revivals are not as simple as you may think. I wish it were. It's not just about people getting together to pray. It's not just about zeal. I'm not suggesting this is wrong. I believe that we should be praying ceaselessly. I enjoy your zeal. There are a lot of things that need to take place for a revival to occur socially, psychologically, and culturally. These can all be interpreted as comming from God or even as man's doing to prepare himself for God's arrival.

Sadly, I must end this comment here as I have some errands to attend to. Start a thread on revival? It would be cool to chat about.

peace.

Eli said...

Brother Adam,

Amen, we all need to have grace. Thank you, brother, for reminding us all.

"But you must concede that God uses our education and efforts to teach and instruct. Not to mention that it helps us argue effectively and understand and know those who oppose us."

Amen. I am by no means against education! It's wonderful and helpul! I'm just not happy how some will not settle for anything BUT education... as if it is the prerequisite for being used.

"Start a thread on revival? It would be cool to chat about."

Amen brother, that sounds like a great idea.

God bless you brother!
In Christ,
-Eli

Logic said...

Eli,

As I have mentioned elsewhere regarding education...

If you want to preach the gospel, fine. You don't need an education for this.

But if you want to make theological, philosophical, linguistic, or historical claims as though you have some authority, go get an education first. You only make yourself lose credibility when you post things where you are not knowledgeable. The 'amuse' thing is a great example of this.

I have no problem with you discussing theology, philosophy, or anything else... but since you're not well educated in these areas, its no surprise that you get correction from those who are.

We do not seek mathmatical education from an Arts student, nor do we seek historical education from a physics professor.

I certainly wouldn't want my children learning math from someone without a mathmatical education, and I certainly wouldn't want them to learn theology from someone without an academic theological education.

Bottom Line: you'd do well to stick to what you know - the Gospel.

-Logic